DAILY BREAD WEDNESDAY EDITION
By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
Bread Scores Another KO
I watched Antonio Margarito's win over Miguel Cotto and I saw a few things that I think could help Cotto win the upcoming fight. Like you I also hope that Cotto pulls out the victory in this fight. I also hope he busts Margarito's right cheek bone wide open and ends his career. Margarito should have never been license to fight again in the first place anyway. After watching the first fight again it's clear that Margarito can't hit a moving target. Margarito did about 95% of his damage when Cotto would lay on the ropes. If Cotto can stay off the ropes and use great lateral movement I think he can win the fight easily. I know Cotto isn't in his prime anymore and may not be able to move as well as he could before but i think it is key to a victory for him to be able to make Margarito miss. Another thing is I hope that they are working on Cotto being able to punch while moving backwards. During the first fight Cotto would move around then stop and plant his feet then fire off his shots. I'd like to see Cotto at least throw his jab while moving around. Cotto has a good hard jab that can help keep Margarito at bay when he tries to smother Cotto. Another thing I saw is that Margarito leaves his elbows wide open. Cotto needs to throw more uppercuts in the upcoming fight. What do you think about all that? I'm not trying to play the race card,but I do not like the fact that Margarito has a whole country behind him because of the whole Puerto Rico vs. Mexico rivalry. Even if you are Mexican it should be very difficult to cheer for such a horrendous human being. God knows how many times Margarito loaded his gloves in his career. He could have done permanent damage to someone and who knows what type of affects Cotto will show later in his life. Bread I liked the term you used when you referred to Floyd as "heavy work" for Pacquiao. That was well said and I agree with you 100%. I have said all along that Floyd would beat Manny if the fight ever gets signed. Floyd just needed a confidence booster and he finally has gotten it. I think we could see the fight next year. I used to think that Floyd would just win a decision, but now I think that Floyd will stop Manny. Floyd will be way to paranoid that the judges will screw him on the cards. I see him fighting very aggressively, and I think he will hurt Manny with a check hook then knock him out with a flurry just like he did Hatton. However if the fight does not get signed how possible do you think a fight with Amir Khan is on May 5th?? If it does happen I think Floyd stops Khan and knocks him out badly. Floyd is punching much harder these days and I don't think Khan's chin is sturdy enough. How about Tim Bradley vs. Manny? Many people say that Manny will beat Bradley easily, but I think Bradley has alot of dog in him. He will make it a tough fight that I think Manny will win but he will struggle to win. Bradley may not have much power, but if i can steal one of your terms for a moment I think Bradley is a "real life monster". Keep up the good work Bread.
Chris from Chicago
Breadís Response: In my opinion Bob Arum has just made it tougher for Manny to ride out his career on his win streak. Arum always chooses the money instead of whatís best for his fighters future as far as winning. Manny makes so much money fighting just about anybody they didnít have to be bothered with Marquez.
Now that everyone knows heís human, something I always knew, they will approach him different. After each of his fights after Marquez2, the legend would grow. Broken bones, fighters claiming to have never being hit that hard, fighters losing oxygen, fighters almost dying, fighters quitting, now one old fighter stands up to him and everybody is relieved. When you have the world at your feet like that, you should keep it that way.
Tim Bradley is a dog and I assume he fears no man. But now he will have extra confidence. Everybody who fights Pacquiao will. Arum RUINED Pacquiaoís cloak. Now he will have to work that much harder to get his Wís. Remember me saying it. What a shame. If I was part of Team Pacquiao I would be livid at Arum.
Amir Khan will a tougher fight for Floyd than you guys think. Donít expect a blowout. I used to think Floyd would destroy him but not so much anymore. Letís wait until after the Peterson fight and assess things.
The boxing public is so fickle...I've never seen a fighter take so much flack for WINNING like manny Pacquiao is getting now! I believe Manny set the bar very high in his previous bouts and now people have an unrealistic standard they hold him to. Do you think that Manny is viewed in a negative light now with the aftermath of his narrow win over Juan Manuel Marquez? Its clear that promoter Bob Arum is cashing him out by pursuing a fourth fight with Juan. Arum wants no parts of Mayweather and for the first time people can now say its not Floyd Mayweather holding up the fight! I know you get TONS of emails about this subject but I just had to chime in...it's about time Manny grows some balls and tells Arum that he works for him and not the other way around.
Breadís Response: I think people just love to HATE. If Pacquiao goes out and knocks Floyd out cold in his next fight, trust me I will get 500 emails saying, styles make fights. Just because Pacquiao canít dominate Marquez that doesnít mean he canít beat Mayweather. Lol. Thatís how people are, they always want to be right. I know a trainer at my gym that says everything AFTER the fact. He knows his sh*t but if you say what you thought was going to happen AFTERWARDS, you will be right 100% of the time. Pacquiao now knows how the public is. I can tell his feelings were hurt. All he talks about is doing this and that for the fans. One close fight and they boo him. Smh.
As for Manny telling Arum he wants the fight, he should. Manny is a DAMN FOOL for allowing Arum to control him. Boxers like Manny are the reason Arum controls boxing. If you control the biggest fighter, you are in control. Arum is about 80 years old and has already lived his life. Manny is 32, he has his in front of him. He needs to fight Floyd Mayweather and win for his legacy. Arum allows those who hate on Manny to have hate fuel. Arum obviously doesnít care. If I was Manny I would tell Arum get me Floyd on May 5th or Iím retiring. Then I would publicly blast Arum. I will turn on Manny for sure if he doesnít tell Arum to go to hell. I know itís not in his makeup but sometimes you have to step out of character to get results. EDITOR'S NOTE: the term "cashing out" means taking the biggest money foght available, even if the fighter is going to lose it. In regards to "cashing out" Pacquiao, a Mayweather fight would be the cash out if you are of the opinion Pacquiao would lose to Mayweather.
Breadman! As you know I like Margarito to KO Cotto in a fight that looks very similar to the first fight. However, watching 24/7ówhich was one of the best ever in my mindóreally has me disturbed. First off, Margarito has been one of my favorite fighters since he beat Antonio Diaz back in 2002. I purchased all of his obscure PPVís and loved his mentality and work ethic. When walked through 6 heads Lewis I was fully on board. His fight with Lujan, Cintron (both times), and PWill cemented my allegiance. His fight with Cotto was my all time favorite fight. I watched it three times that night and twice the next morning.
I have always firmly believed he did not cheat prior to Mosley. However, there is a cut in the hand wraps. There is clearly a black crack. Now, I donít know much about hand wraps but Cotto and other are pretty adamant that they cannot be broken. Perhaps you can shed light on that. I am not so naÔve that I will deny facts. It smells bad and I now believe he at least cheated for the Cotto fight. But is it possible he has been doing this for years? If so, how were some of his opponents, P-Will & Clottey in particular able to absorb 12 rounds of plaster?
I consider myself a self-aware person with honor and integrity but I really am stuck on this issue. I feel an emotional connection to fighters I have watched progress, and I have been pumping Margarito since 2002. However, he has proven himself to be lacking of integrity and honor. Perhaps, he didnít know. Perhaps, this only happened for the Cotto fight? The real question is how can I still root for Margarito. These are questions I am wrestling with. -- Roy
readís Response: Roy Dollar$$, whatís up bro. I was also a big Margarito guy. He tore Antonio Diaz up with that nasty left uppercut. And man he almost killed 6 Heads Lewis. I thought that he was a horror movie in the early 2000ís. But here is the thing about reality, it is what it is. I looked at the crack carefully. The crack could have been black string that looks like a crack. I want to be as fair as possible. The crack is not totally convincing to me. But the red stain in the same spot is. In my mind, there is no doubt he cheated against Cotto. I canít say for sure if he used them before that. But here is the problem with being a cheater. You deservedly get questioned for everything you have accomplished. Itís poetic justice. Until Margarito destroys somebody now like he did pre Mosley fight he will always be questioned. I donít know when he started doing this and I donít care. Itís his own fault that he either cheated or allowed a cheater in his realm.
If you want to root for him, go ahead. Itís your prerogative. None of us are Saints. I personally donít hate Margarito, I think he will get HIS 10x over. Pacquiao and Mosley both savagely beat him and the beatings will continue. Trust me that how shit works out. I tell ALL fighters and people in general. Be careful of what you do, you donít want to block your blessings. Life Circles the Block. I personally donít root for Margarito anymore and I could never root for him against Cotto. I still respect him as a fighter. I always say his chin does not have plaster in it. That being said I hope Cotto beats him as bad as he beat Cotto. Thatís all I can really say about this.
1. Juan Manuel Marquez beat manny Pacquiao 7-4-1. IMO, they gave Marquez too much time to prepare and they underestimated him thinking he was finished, the only way Marquez was gonna win was by KO.
2. Julio Cesar Chavez isnít all that, the last guy he fought proved that (Sebastian Zbik), not Peter Manfredo who has been finished since the Jeff Lacy fight. Promoter Bob Arum has him on the Pacquiao plan to fame and greatness, theyíll fight another, gatekeeper journeyman fighter next until a fight against Canelo is BIG enough to be made. Heíll NEVER fight Sergio Martinez!
3. Yuriorkis Gamboa isnít ready for Brandon Rios, heís more talented yeah but thatís about it. Rios will crush him. The big fight for Gamboa was against Juan Manuel Lopez but Orlando Salido fixed that, plus Lopez was a bit overrated and underskilled.
4. I agree with the psychological stuff youíre saying about Cotto, but Cottoís proof has put Margarito mentally at a disadvantage because he canít explain away those pictures. The guilt and shame that Margarito is feeling will be enough to give Cotto the advantage just like it did against Mosley who exposed his ďmost avoided fighterĒ secret. When Margarito damn near knock Sebastian Lujanís ear a few years back that was suspicious. I believe heíd been using those implements for more than 1 or 2 fights.
5. I agree that Pavlik is basically finished as Larry Merchants ďon his way to being the greatest middleweight fighter of all timesĒ, he canít compete against Ward, Bute, Froch or Sakio Bika. Pavlik like Taylor is gonna have to shrink himself back down to 160lbs but then Martinez is there waiting for him.
6. Floyd SHOULD spar with Kirkland to get ready for Pacquiao!!
Breadís Response: As usual Rob good comment. We donít always agree butÖ.
Anyway you keep saying Floyd should spar Kirkland to get ready for Pacquiao. Man that would be great but Iím not so sure how long that would last. You know better than most Kirkland is a savage in the gym. He routinely knocks out heavyweights. I have seen the footage. That may be too much ďheavy workĒ for Floyd. Kirkland does not have the greatest chin but with headgear and 16 oz gloves on Floyd may not be able to keep him off of him. If Floyd sparred with Kirkland too long it wear him out. For those who donít know what I mean by ďheavy workĒ here is what it is. First off, sparring is really draining physically. So when you spar a guy bigger than you itís like lifting your max in weight in the gym. It becomes more draining. So for a guy like Floyd to spar Kirkland, although they are only 1 weight division apart, in the gym Floyd will giving up about 25lbs to a monster who is trying to kill him. I would take the work but I wouldnít want it for an extended period. Feel me.
Manny had ďheavy workĒ against Margarito. Thatís why he was so drained after the fight. In our gym in Philly, we have Yusaf Mack and Dhafir Smith. They are both light heavyweights. My fighter Julian Williams is a junior middleweight. I let him spar them and he does well, but not too close to a fight. Why? ďHeavy Work.Ē I hope I explained that to you guys who keep writing in asking me what I meant by that.
While it could be true that Margarito used the plaster in his first fight, do you think Cotto is doing himself a disservice by believing so ? I was watching 24/7 and he kept talking about the plaster and then saying Marg wouldn't be able to use them this time as if they were the only reason he lost. This made me question how Cotto will react when he sees that Margarito is still walking through everything and even with out the plaster(if he did use it) still hits hard. I know you are high on Cotto but he always showed mental weaknesses to me and I see him being broken again but possibly sooner this time.
Breadís Response: I donít believe Cotto is doing himself a disservice by believing Margarito cheated. Margarito did cheat as far as I am concerned. Also you have to understand a fighterís psyche. Fighters at times have to be in denial. They canít be a like normal person. They need edges where they can get them. If Cotto believed Margarito beat him and stopped him on the best and biggest night of his career, psychologically he would not stand a chance. Cotto believes Margarito HAD to cheat to beat him and he believes under FAIR conditions he beats him. Nothing wrong with that.
If Margarito walks through Cottoís punches early, so what. No one ever questions his chin anyway. We expect that. Cotto needs reassurance and his alleged proof that Margarito cheated is enough for him. Thanks for the comment.
One thing i haven't noticed covered a lot on boxingtalk... ever since some of the major media (espn, boxingtalk etc).. have pretty much toed the party line.. is the overall reaction of fan & media polling of people's opinions of the Pacquaio fight. HBO's in fight poll had 62% of fight fans saying Marquez won to just 30 something % of fans thinking pac won.. the rest had it draw. HBO's polling of boxing media had 48% believing Marquez rightfully deserved the win... to just 12% of thinking Pacquaio had won. In fact every online poll for all the sites reflects similar data. I know some toe this party line, but where is the objectivity. Why hasn't boxingtalk installed it's own poll to get the true reflection of the public's view on a fight. I know Pacquaio's the "house" fighter with the $22 million purse.. & some might want to put a positive spin on for Arum... but again punches don't lie. Now that the replay has aired where you can tivo & go back & watch slow motion punch by punch.. you will see that Pac was missing most of his punches & there was no way in the world the (already proven) flawed compubox #'s were accurate. Marquez landed more & the harder shots of the fight... What gives?
Breadís Response: I donít get it Ben. You are obviously hard to please. We poll but we poll in a different way. We allow you guys to not only tell who you thought won but why. So what if itís not a % poll. We polled our writers and the majority had Pacquiao winning. You forgot to add that over 40% of the media polled had it draw! Thatís a very large number of people scoring a fight dead even, 6 rounds to 6 rounds. What are you complaining about?
You keep calling Pacquiao our house fighter. I donít get that. When have you seen Pacquiao on boxingtalk? Why do we care that he made 22 million. He doesnít cut us a check. Do you see of his website logos jumping around on our site? I always have to check you guys for stuff like this. The fight was close! The problem is people love to tear those at the top down. I wonder if you guys wrote into websites so vigorously when a judge admitted he should have scored the 1st round of Pac/Marquez 10-6 instead of 10-7. That judge cost Pacquiao the fight! There was no outrage. Now that heís an icon you guys want to kill the guy for being in a close fight. He fought his toughest rival 3 times when he didnít have to. Iím actually pissed at Pacquiao for not standing up to Arum but I canít get mad at him for being in a tough fight. My goodness! REEEEEEELAXXXXX.
I got a chance recently to go to a local pro card and sat pretty close to the ring. It was first pro card I've been that close enough to notice the difference of having smaller gloves on and no head gear. Being that it was the first fight for a few of the guys on the card who I had seen fighting in amateur fights not too long ago it made me think...I wonder how they will adjust to no headgear and smaller gloves. Do you have any recommendations on getting a fighter acclimated to that? Would it make sense to have a fighter do a little sparring in 8 oz gloves with no headgear a few times before his first pro fight? I remember reading Sugar Ray Leonard did this before his comeback against Hagler and also have seen interviews where Mayweather stated he did this during one of his long layoffs. Do you see any downside to this method? Also, is there any legality issue where a club is not supposed to allow this type of sparring? Thx - Sean
Breadís Response: I wouldnít do it too often but itís nothing wrong with boxing without headgear once in a blue moon. Especially for guys who havenít done it. An old pro who is not afraid of contact would not have to do that unless he has been OFF. But for new guys itís a good thing. Especially if heís a little leery of contact.
Hi Bread! I read an analogy from Nazim Richardson concerning Mayweather and Pacquiao about not caring too much about the fight anymore. That it was like chasing a girl for so long that at some stage, you don't even want her anymore. Well, I'm a bit at that point. I can imagine you are close to that point since you also have to answer back to people like me writing all the time about it. I promise it will be my last email until the fight is signed up. My analogy is like when you expect a massive night out. You are pumped, excited and always it always turns out to be...okay. Not great. On the other hand, you go out for dinner with a friend, other people arrive by random, a few bottles of wine later the party is on an it becomes a memorable night. Unexpected. I truly believe Pacman and money will be disappointing. I will watch, but it ain't gonna be good. Timing is everything and they missed the mark with this one. A year ago, Pacman had all the momentum and Mayweather was scared or doubtful I should say. Since you are as good as your last fight, the table has turned. Marquez reduced Pacquiao's punch output by half. Mayweather is an artist at making you throw nothing:). The crowd will be impatient, there will be booos. Only curiosity makes me want to see the fight but I know that it will bring more disappointment than awesomeness! It will be very technical not a war. All that to say that I'm not salivating anymore about the fight. For me it more like...whatever! Not sure I would care if it wasn't done.-- Mike Lafleur
Breadís Response: Naazim should be a ring announcer after his training career is over. He is super articulate and quick witted. Whenever I say whatís up to him in the gym, he replies ďIím holding on with both hands, soldier.Ē
I actually agree with him. I have tried to hook up with women who thought it was cool to make me wait. Not one time was it ever worth it. Thatís why I donít wait often. The expectations always out weigh the results. This fight has been overcooked. When you have 2 fighters who have been in the public eye for this long at the top level, there is no reason to keep waiting. Lots of people would say to me Floyd is waiting to make the pot bigger. I would always say NO WAY. After Pacquiao destroyed Oscar and Hatton, this fight was as BIG as it was going to get. It was about 50/50 at that time. Not anymore. They over did it and now if we donít see Zale/Graziano it will be disappointing. What a shame.
I just read on espn.com that Cotto said, if the Margarito fight is not in New York then he will not fight Antonio. I agree with Cotto! Although Miguel states that his decision to not fight Margarito is not based on home court advantage, if anybody deserves a partisan advantage going into a fight with this backdrop, its Cotto! Arum named replacement venues. Some of them are in locale with a predominantly Mexican fan base. Why can't Arum do the right thing and stage the fight in Puerto Rico? You thoughts...
Andy from Brooklyn
Breadís Response: I donít blame Cotto. Heís the boss! Thatís how Manny needs to stand up to Arum. Look Arum and Top Rank should have had these medicals taken care. In my opinion they tried to be slick. They waited on getting the clearance because they thought it would force New York to approve Margarito because the fight was around the corner. But if the fight is not in NY that hurts Cotto. He deserves his homecourt advantage. Especially since Margarito had it the last time when they fought in Vegas.
Iím not saying Arum should move the fight to Vegas. What I am saying is that Arum should have had Margarito examined much sooner by NY, to see if he they would license before he started promoting the fight as if it was going to be in NY, when he obviously wasnít sure. You talk about an inconsiderate and inconvenient. Can you imagine how the common fan, who saved his money to go to NY feels right about now?
Stephen my great philosopher, brother, and teacher of Boxiana,
This Floyd assessment is waaaay out of hand. My take on it is a while back a random comment was made on FB that Floyd uses the shoulder roll better than James Toney.
How can this be when Toney uses it against BETTER opposition, which increases credit and consistency -- than Floyd. From 91 Nunn to 2006 draw with Rahman Toney was a world beater on all levels and weights. Floyd has ONE fight on his dossier that matters with timing and non cherry picking -- CASTILLO part 1 [one can and I will say he lost] Part two is a clear demonstration of wanting to avenge doubt, so Floyd agrees to even the score, in which clearly he did. Ricky Hatton hhhhmmm? Ok, but still hmmmm?
Thank you Stephen for reminding me of Joel Casamayor, Acelino Frietas, Kostya Tszyu
The fact also remains that Floyd AVOIDED Stevie Johnston in 99 Mosley in 99 & 2009 Margarito in 06 Cotto in 08 Pacman in 09 10, 11. Floyd won't even mention Maravilla at 154. Since he "chose" and inexperienced Ortiz. Why not the same "inexperience" in Paul Williams in 08 ish. Oh yeah he "retired" to avoid Cotto. OK OK 1 avoid at a time. Remember Floyd by-passed Mosley [again] to "challenge" a bona fide lightweight in Marquez, Sept 09. AND he still comes in overweight contracted.
Mosley was on the shelf Sept 09 for looking to good "for his own good" against Margarito in 1/09. There was trash talk between Mayweather towards Winky Wright in 04 on Boxingtalk. Floyd somehow found another shopping plaza to seek an opponent. Hey "why not" Shane went from lightweight to wltrwght. So did Duran. Floyd was 140 in 04 but running his mouth duping people. Ask Winky what happened.??
Floyd is Master of AVOIDING prime peers worthy, available, and willing. Shame. THAT'S 11 viable opponents, thats too much to rank a guy high in P4P ever. Floyd doesn't BELIEVE in Floyd --bottom line. That's not a FIGHTER that's manager disguised as a fighter, a performer, a milli vanilli stunt.
A GREAT FIGHTER -- FIGHTS !!! PERIOD !! name another glorified bona fide All Timer that has 11 potential prime opponents in his era that he avoided. I will quickly disregard his name from coming out of my mouth. From the top of my mind Roy Jones has 5 or 6? Hopkins same. These are still high numbers. Only BHop is making up for it successfully.
After most think he lost or looked "stale" against Juan, b/c Juan is a fighter in every essence, As of this moment WHERE IS THE YOUTUBE video of Floyd calling out Manny since 2 weeks ago. Why wasn't Floyd at the fight like Sergio at Chavez' or Shane at Floyd's, etc. To indicate the "Ray Leonard at the Mugabi fight, now I'll fight Hagler b/c he slipped tonight" [not that Floyd could've seen the future]
Like contrary to the YouTube videos to slander Pac. Where is the [this time around we'll praise him] let's be eloquent and classy MEGA press conference that Floyd wants to fight Manny since 2 wks ago-- NO WHERE ! I don't believe Floyd wants this fight EVEN if Manny loses !
ROGER recently said He wants Floyd to fight Manny..Now THIS IS THE 1st Time I hear uncle playing Monday morning quarterback, to two wks ago. Correct me if I'm wrong, but NEVER have I heard him or dad MENTION Pac as an opponent [for Floyd]. It's Only -- b/c Pac looked "stale" against Juan. Someone Remind Roger that -- Hearns ko'd Duran Ray ko'd Hearns and Duran beat up Ray Hagler ko'd Hearns Duran went 15 close rounds with Marv. S T Y L E S - M A K E- F I G H T S Maybe Roger, using his own famous retort "don't know shit about boxing"
Lastly, It takes 10 bowls of Floyd to equal one bowl of Gatti. That's not in the skills area -- IT'S THE HEART department. Otherwise instead of 11 MEN it would be 0 or 1 or 2 guys Floyd didn't fight. And you Stephen say... one cant fight everybody.
I hope I have made some sense. I just pointing out the OBVIOUS WITHOUT attitude.
Whats up "the truth"? hope that little girl is doing well my man. I know you are a floyd fan and you only criticize what you see and believe, but to claim Floyd has missed too many boxers to be ranked up Sugar is you only being biased because your heart is always with your fav fighter of all time. Out of the nine names you mentioned the only one i ever seeing Floyd ducked was Kosta and Floyd even opening came out and called him out. Floyd will probably go down as the greatest lightweight of all time and to say he dodged Johnston, Casamoyer and whoever else you said is ridiculous. The man fought has one of the most impressive resumes of all time in the lightweight division. Floyd saw where the money was and moved up quicker to 140 and 147 then he should have and who can hate on a man for finally trying to get some "bread", where the big fights were!?!? Moving a along, Margacheato& Cotto are and were under Bob Arum, is this solely Floyds fault or that old geezer who is holding up the fight we all wanna see now. Paul Williams was a no name at the time and very green!!! Mosley wasnt even campaigning at 147 when Floyd went on his vacation, so dont tell me he waited for him to get old. I'll give you Kosta, but you give me Pryor for SRL!! Love the big mailbags and have a happy thanksgiving brother!! **Greg, Columbus, Ohio**
Stand up Bread! Youíre doing an excellent job with the mailbag. Now itís time to give one of BoxingTalkís biggest female fans a chance to get some mailbag burn and represent for the ladies, lol.
Respectfully, I think you guys need to step away from the Floyd Mayweather Jr. ducking Antonio Marga-Plaster-Fist and Miguel Cotto analogies. Itís starting to wrongfully take on its own life like the Ray Leonard ducking Aaron Pryor nonsense.
Letís start with Margarito from 2005 to 2006.
Feb 2005: TKO Lujan, April 2005: TKO Cintron, Feb 2006: TKO Gomez, Dec 2006: UD Clottey.
Now letís look at Floyd in 2005. Keep in mind Floyd didnít make his WELTERWEIGHT debut until late 2005.
Jan 2005: TKO Bruseles, Jun 2005: TD Gatti, Nov 2005 (first fight at welterweight) TKO Shamba Mitchell.
So up until late 2005 Floyd was at 140. I donít see the duck in 2005 largely because he wasnít even at the weight.
Now letís look at Floyd in 2006 when Floyd takes out the two most recent universally recognized welterweight champions at the time. Much bigger fights than Margarito. Again, whereís the duck or the public clamoring for a Floyd vs. Margarito fight?
Apr 2006: UD Judah
Nov 2006: UD Baldomir
Now, in 2007 Floyd fights Oscar De La Hoya in May. Margatiro loses to Paul Williams in July 2007. Floyd fights the then undefeated Ricky Hatton in December. Again, where was the duck?
Using BoxingTalkís own archives I see back in 2005 Floyd was seriously negotiating to fight a much larger Winky Wright at 154. I believe Wright was a bigger threat and fight in 2005 than Margarito is/was. Am I wrong? Wright allegedly wanted 50/50 which broke down talks.
Now to Miguel Cotto. In 2005 Floyd and Miguel were at the same weight (140). But Miguel was calling out 135 pound guys. He wanted the winner of Corrales and Castillo.
Cotto didnít move up to welterweight until the very end of 2006 versus Quintana. You canít duck guys not in your division. So how is Floyd ducking Cotto, while trying to secure the biggest fight in boxing in May 2007 with DLH. And I have no problem with Floydís competition level in 2007 (DLH / Hatton). I can see ppl saying Floyd took the vacay in 2008 to bulk up for Margarito (but why would he with Margarito losing to Williams in 07 already eliminating himself), but why would he need the vacay to ďbulkĒ up or wait out Cotto? They were already at the same weight once before and Cotto wasn't calling him out.
Iím not a Floyd fan, but I am a avid follower of the sport. I like to challenge the myths. If Iím wrong on this let me know Bread.
I enjoy your bag.
Breadís Response: Hey guys and gals since your comments all pertain to basically the same thing I will answer ALL 3 in one statement. First I want to say whatís up to Courtney from Ohio, I always welcome new people to the mailbag. I was just out Ohio Court in Stow doing some training.
TheNonpareil Hilario will go 1st. My brother and fellow Philosopher from the ďTownĒ, home of Bluehill Avenue.You make sense as usual. On point as usual. Correct as usual. Youíre the only one who observed Floyd was no where to be found. Not that he HAS to attend Pacquiaoís fights. But those who claim he is all about the promotion and the money, would surely expect him to be there in the MGM Grand, dressed to the T, in urban threads and plenty of ice. Ready, Willing and Able to challenge Pacquiao after the Marquez fight. It made sense. He was all the way up in Connecticut mysteriously at the Ortiz/Berto fight and low and behold he challenged the WINNER. I find it reasonable to think he would have been able to drive 5 minutes down the road to the MGM Grand to start the BIGGEST Promotion of all time, dead center in the ring. TheNonpareil knows boxing and propaganda alike.
Next up my man Greg in Columbus, what up bro? Thanks for asking about my daughter, she just pulled down my fight dvd collection, smh. Now you know you shouldnít have challenged me. My record is impeccable. My formula is flawless. Itísimple. Only fight with the TRUTH and you wonít lose, because the TRUTH comes one way. Bonnie Edwards(mom) taught me that. Now listen close because I wonít repeat this. I have already broken this down before and I wonít do it again. When you write back, if you can write back, donít attack with vague opinions. Attack with the facts and address my exact TRUTH. I will give you the floor one last time and after that, we will be done with this particular FIGHT.
Ok Greg 1st off, Floyd did not establish a great legacy at lightweight. He only fought there a couple times. His legacy was built at junior lightweight which is 130lbs. Please be specific because there is a difference. If you want to be technical Floyd struggled more at 135 which is lightweight than he did at any other time in his career. He tested the water against Emanuel Augustus and had a really tough fight. He went back up there a couple of years later and had 4 fights. Two tough decisions against Jose Luis Castillo, another tough fight against Victor Sosa and his usual dominant performance against Phillip Ndou.
Now that I have corrected you , we can agree Floyd is Not the best lightweight ever. Not even close. Ok so I said he missed guys. Iím going to start at 130 junior lightweight and work my way up. Floyd won his 1st title at 130lbs in October of 1998. Joel Casamayor and Acelino Freitas won their titles at 130 in 1999. They were both standout undefeated fighters in Floydís division. Those guys were champions there up until Floyd left the division. They fought each other in a unification match but no match was ever made with Floyd. Iím not saying they would have beat Floyd. Iím not saying Floyd ďduckedĒ them. But a pattern developed early, that turned into a trend later. When you want to make certain fights, what you do is sweeten the pot(offer more money), like Amir Khan did Tim Bradley. I donít recall Floyd doing that. Now remember this at that particular time in Floydís life he said after one of his title defenses that he wanted to go down history like Joe Louis and defend his junior lightweight title 25 times like Louis did his heavyweight title.
Casamayor and Freitas had not shown weakness at that time. They were undefeated. Floyd has a whisper history of making opportune fights. I give him full credit for Diego Corrales. But you guys are going to say Iím hating when I say this. But Floyd yanked Corrales chain back and forth and finally made the fight when Corarales had already planned to move up to 135, and was about to go to jail. Now I give him full credit because fighters have to deal with problems and still perform but the opportunist pattern continued.
Next up is Stevie Johnston. You may not know this but Johnston lost his lightweight title to Jose Luis Castillo. Castillo beat Johnston by a razor thin decision and Johnston caught a draw in the rematch that many thought he won. So Floyd has life and death with Castillo the 1st time, beats him close but clear the 2nd time. Now guess who is the leading contender? Guess who HBO is familiar with? Stevie Johnston. Johnston didnít get a shot and was forced to fight in an eliminator against Juan Lascano and lost. That was the end of Stevie Johnston as a viable contender. Another trend. Attrition. Let the threats clear themselves out.
Next up we have Kostya Tszyu. Floyd moves up to 140 in 2004. Floyd only fights 1 fight that year, against Demarcus Corley where he was visibly hurt for the 1st time in his career. That fight happens to be a WBC eliminator. Arturo Gatti is the WBC champion. Floyd fights another WBC eliminator against Henry Brusseles. Now ask yourself why was it so important to fight for the WBC belt when Kostya was the RING champion and IBF beltholder. I assume because Gatti was the champion and he was an easier fight than Tszyu. Rarely in boxing do you see a prominent fighter who was champion in a lower division be forced to fight 2 eliminators. I think Floyd wanted to fight those specific eliminators because he wanted to fight that specific champion.
Ok so now we go to welterweight. By the way I have no problem with Floyd not staying at 140 too long, the money was at 147. Ok so Floyd goes to 147. I have no problem with him fighting Judah, Baldomir, Hatton and De La Hoya. Here is where you can get in this Courtney.
Why is it ok for Floyd to fight Judah in a PPV fight coming off of a loss but itís not ok to fight Margarito coming off of the Williams loss? I think Margarito is more of a monster than Zab at 147. Tell me what you guys think? Williams is a better fighter than Baldomir we can surely agree. And Margarito/Williams was a dog fight in which Margarito started too late but came on. Zab lost to a perceived journeyman where he started too early and came down. The trend is continuing.
Next up Court I never said Floyd ducked Margarito in 2007. I said he retired in at the end of 2007 so he didnít have to fight him. Now you ask why did Floyd have to bulk up to fight Cotto. Cotto was struggling to make 140 and he is naturally a larger man than Floyd. Top Rank matched Cotto with previous Floyd competition and like Manny, Cotto outperformed Floyd. Cotto knocked out Zab Judah, DeMarcus Corley and Victor Sosa. Floyd struggled against Sosa and Judah somewhat and Corely buzzed him twice really bad. Floyd went the distance with ALL 3. I know side by side comparisons donít mean everything Iím just stating what happened. People use these comparisons right now against Pacquiaio. Ironic right.
Now in 2007 Cotto went on a tear. He also fought in front of the African American audience twice on PPV and did really well against Zab Judah and Shane Mosley. Floyd was coming off of his biggest year as a professional in 2007. Floyd is also part of the hip hop era. Hip Hop was invented in NY. Cotto is huge in NY. You guys always claim Floyd is about the money. Floyd was seeking rematches in 2008 with Oscar and Hatton when he couldíve fought Cotto at the Garden for a ton of GOLD. There is NO reason why that fight shouldnít have been made in 2008. So Floyd leaves and Cotto and Margarito fight. The trend continues.
I give Floyd a slight break with Williams, but Williams was an undefeated fighter in his division that was a world champion. The trend is still bubbling. As Thenonpareil says, if Floyd can fight Ortiz he could have fought Williams. I know Ortiz was Mexican but Williams beat the baddest Mexican around in 2007. Greg you state Williams was green but he was 30-0 and he was seasoned enough to beat MargaritoÖ. SoÖ.
Ok I am about to finish up but I have to go back to Greg. You said to me give you Pryor. Iím glad Courtney knows better. Why is that Floyd fans try to go back in history and try to find another great fighter that has missed as many fighters as Floyd? The convenient argument is Leonard ducked Pryor. Herd Theory, lies.
1st off Leonard is my favorite fighter because he is a pioneer. He wanted to be the 1st to expose a fighter. He didnít wait around and wait on other people to do it. Leonard beat 4 fighters that were better than anybody Floyd has ever faced at the TIME he faced them. Leonard fought Benitez when he was undefeated 38-0 and a two time world champion. He beat Duran when he was 71-1 and avenged his loss twice by ko. He was also the top fighter p4p in the world at the time they fought. He beat Hearns when he was 32-0 and also the number 1 p4p fighter in the world. He fought Hagler after 1 fight in 5 years at middleweight when was 62-2-2 and had not lost in 10 years. Both of those losses also avenged by brutal ko and he was the number 1 fighter in the world. Show me another fighter who has beat the number 1 fighter p4p in the world on 3 separate occasions? If you throw in a 36-0 Ayube Kalule and a prime Terry Norris that he lost to but fought as a shot drug addict, you have a fighter who absolutely did not care who he fought and sought at fighters at the top of their game. Stop me please when Iím lying. Floyd is Leonardís equal as far as talent but not legacy.
Now letís go to Pryor. So let me get this straight. Leonard was ducking Pryor while he was fighting Duran twice and Tommy Hearns at 147. Greg you donít know your history enough to make this baseless statement. It would be the same as Floyd fighting Manny and Berto, but 20 years from now people say he ducked Tim Bradley. More importantly Ray was such a GUN. He offered Pryor a fight to just stay busy before he fought Hearns. After Leonard won his title back from Duran in Nov of 1980 he offered Pryor a fight. Pryor was runnin his mouth so Ray said fine I will fight you. Itís a fact and Pryor admitted it. Pryor had only one title defense at 140 and he was not a househould name. You guys donít realize that the legend of Pryor was built against Arguello after Ray retired.
Ray offered Pryor the fight. Ray was going to make 4million. Pryor was going to make 500k. I assume he couldíve squeezed a little more cash out of Ray. But Pryor turned down a career high pay day. He had never more than 100k in his entire career. Fact. Duran who was much more established than Pryor only made 1 million in his 1st fight with Leonard. He didnít hit the jackpot until the 2nd Leonard fight. Back to Leonard and Pryor, Pryor turned the fight down and Leonard fought a southpaw by the name of Larry Bonds. He did that to get ready for Ayube Kalule another southpaw who he would fight next for the junior middleweight title. Next up was his showdown with Hearns. So where was the duck? Ray tried to fight Pryor, but Pryor turned it down so Ray moved onÖ..If you donít believe me here is Pryor admitting it on youtube. Also you might find it interesting that Pryor is flanked by Leonardís old trainer Dave Jacobs. Jacobs knew what kind of beast Ray was. Everybody in the gyms knew including Emanuel Steward. When Howard Cossell asked Pryor and Jacobs about Leonard. Jacobs advises Pryor to stay at 140 or go down to 135 where he originally was. LOL. Haters created this myth. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1G8ZBnglxI Fast forward to the 11:30 mark of the video. Now tell me what the difference is between Pryor taking 500k in 1981 if Ray took 4mill. And Victor Ortiz taking 2.5 million to Floydís 30 million? Please be careful when you write in nonsense to me.
One more myth I want to address that none of you guys mentioned. I donít just say these things because Leonard is my favorite fighter. I say these things because I am a defender of the TRUTH. Leonard cherrypicked a little after he came back against Hagler. I have no problem admitting that. He waited and postured somewhat but he fought so many tough guys no one bothers him about it. But some say he waited on Hagler again like Floyd waited on Pacquiao. We know that Leonard and Hagler were 13lbs apart. We also know that Leonard was OFF. But here is something you guys donít realize. Leonard made the negotiations sweet. He didnít purposely try to screw up fights.
Some feel Leonard took advantage of Hagler and made him fight in a 12 round fight. Something the masses suggest Hagler had NEVER done before. The reason Hagler conceded to this 12 round fight was for two BIG reasons. Are you myth seekers ready for this? Hagler had fought three 12 rounds fights long before he met Leonard. He fought one against Juan Roldan in 1984, Tommy Hearns in 1985 and John Mugabi in 1986. How could he say NO to Leonard asking for a 12 round fight when his previous two fights were 12 rounders? Ray also gave Hagler 48 states of the Closed Circuit. Ray only kept the DC and Maryaland area. So after everything was done Hagler made about 25 million to fight Leonard. Ray only made about 14 million. So he sweentened the pot. Thatís what you do when you want to fight somebody, you make the negotiations easier. For all facts check youtube, boxrec and other valid research banks. I am now about 70-0 with 64 kos.
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