DAILY BREAD MONDAY EDITION (10-1-12)
By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
Bread, shout outs from the Big Apple. Just copped my ringside seats for the Barclay's show [Brooklyn, October 20th]. Pretty stacked card. I'm looking forward to it, you going? Should be an epic night and tons of energy from the crowd and some KO style match-ups.
I'm writing in regards to the CURRENT state of Floyd Mayweather's place in the sport of boxing - I feel like hes on the verge of a career defining moment in how he handles his next fight or two. The P4P list is now completely upside down, with Andre Ward, Sergio Martinez, Saul "Canelo" Alvarez all making noise and staying ACTIVE, and manny Pacquiao preparing to face Juan Manuel Marquez again. Without doing an Obama fact check, Floyd must be one of the most inactive world champions and P4P greats in their prime over the last decade or two. True?
However, his leverage in controlling negotiations is unreal and Im not sure if any fighter has had such power over the process, networks, and yes, the promoters. Going back to the glory days of Mike Tyson, Evander Holyfield, etc...Don King ran it all. Even Oscar De La Hoya was controlled by Bob Arum until the latter stages. Never the fighter. Floyd has monopolized the fight game, but to me AT THIS POINT its simply psychological and can be cracked. And this is because ALL fighters call him out and give him supremacy, its a one-way street negotiation with Floyd and everyone is too dumb to understand business economics and leverage. They all dream of the big payday like a crackhead buying a lottery ticket, drooling of millions.
So my question is given that Mayweather practically runs a monopoly and rarely swings at a pitch, shouldnt boxers just stop chasing him and stop calling him out, and make him come to the table as a "former" P4P great who maybe missed the last train as boxing reshapes its image and future stars of the sport?? His legacy is clearly at stake now and is about to hit a brick wall if he doesnt pull off a stellar fight, tune up or not. The fighters listed above are active champions and are starting to capture the hole that is left by the star's biggest name ignorantly refusing and sometimes legally unavailable to fight on a regular schedule. I think its in the best interest of all Floyd's logical opponents to ignore him completely, dismiss him from their wish list, writers confidently shift him out of the top 3 P4P list due to overall activity over the past 2-3 years and watch him start calling out other fighters and regaining his desire to be #1. Then maybe we will see the showdowns we always wanted.
DJ from NYC.
Breadís Response: Yes I will be in the building. Iím currently training Steve Upsher Chambers for this fight. Heís going to be fighting Luis Collazo on the card. As of right now we are walking quiet but we will carry a BIG stick come October 20th. Hope to see you there.
I donít know what to say about Floyd at this moment. It doesnít seem that heís intent on fighting again until next May if at all. With Canelo and Cotto seemingly on a collision course and the negotiations with Manny never agreeable I wouldnít be surprised if he never fights again.
I agree fighters should just leave him be and move on. Sometimes waiting around you can hit the lottery like Tim Bradley did, but most times you get stuck in the mud. Mayweather fights so seldom if you wait on him, you could really be waitingÖ.I think a better approach would be to fight, stay in the publicís eye and let the chips fall where they may. It worked for Ortiz and Hatton. Oh wellÖ
Here is the thing DJ. Like or not, Mayweather represents a lottery ticket for fighters. So even though he monopolizes the market, the fighters donít care. They want the camera time and the payday he represents. Despite him being rough at the negotiating table he still represents most times the biggest payday a fighter has ever had. To prove your point I still donít know how Victor Ortiz took 2.5 million, but Mayweather is a BOSS right now and seems to be able to pull stuff like that off.
I wanted to get your thoughts on a potential fight between Gabe Rosado and Canelo Alvarez. Man would I love to see that fight. I'm not knocking Canelo, but its time for him to fight somebody in the top ten in his division. I know his last fight two potential opponents of his fell through because of unusual circumstances. Anyways I think it's the perfect fight for both guys, but I would definitely favor Canelo at the moment, but I know Gabe is dying for this fight. I can sense the envy he has for Canelo in his interviews because of how different their roads have been towards a title shot. Canelo was babied early in his career and like Chavez Jr was handed a belt to him. Meanwhile, Gabe has had a much tougher road towards a title shot, but it has only made him a stronger fighter. Make the fight!!! Lol. Also, are you really going to pick against Manny again Bread? And who wins a fight between Andre Ward and the 2001 version of Bernard Hopkins
Breadís Response: I donít know if Gabe envies Canelo. But I do know fighters have axes to grind against fighters that they donít feel went through what they went through. Look how Vargas felt about Oscar. How about Hagler towards Ray. Frazier towards Ali. Hopkins towards Jones. Thatís just boxing. You even have trainers having contempt towards other trainers because they donít feel they went through enough to get where they are at.
Iím not putting Gabe in that category. Heís a cool humble dude. But I do know he wants to fight Canelo. He wants to prove himself. He wants to show everybody his earlier career defeats were due to him being inexperienced not less talented. I just hope Gabe remains focused and doesnít become overindulged with Alvarez.
Most times the fighter with the axe to grind is less celebrated and usually they lose the fight against the more celebrated fighter because they fight MAD instead of focused, Or prideful i.e. Hagler.
As for the fights itself, I think it would be a Fight Of The Year type. Right there with Rios vs Alvarado. Gabe is taller and probably bigger than Canelo. Gabe has to be one of the biggest junior middleweights I have ever seen. I donít know how he makes 154lbs. Heís 6í0 and very dense. He grinds you out and he takes clever angles when he reaches the point of attack. Gabe also has an extra gear he can put it in to finish you and heís proven to be a stud in the later rounds.
Canelo stands in the pocket and heís becoming boxingís best combination and body puncher. Canleo doesnít flurry. He punches. There is a huge difference. Meldrick Taylor punched in combination but he flurried for the most part. Canelo makes EVERY punch of his sequence count. He reminds a little of a younger Barerra, With his ability to go head to body and body to head. He also mixes in uppercuts off of his hooks, which makes his punch sequence hard to gauge. I donít have a pick just yet, itís too close to call. Letís hope we get an early Christmas gift and we get the fight in December.
You are the man. Why not just do a video post, blogs, mails bags or articles everyday? You are the only reason boxingtalk is still around. If not I'll write you, you knowledge is hands down the best. One quick question who was your mentor growing up in the boxing game?
Breadís Response: I try my best bro. But my schedule doesnít always allow me to put something up everyday. Also I try to post comments when I get 7 or 8 good ones. I read each one and I try to pick the best out of the bunch. If I donít have any ones I like I wonít post anything until I feel satisfied. Thanks for the vote of support.
My mentor growing up was my grandfather Stan ďThe ManĒ Edwards. He was born in the 1930ís a time where boxing and baseball where the biggest sports. My grand pop didnít talk to me like I was a little kid. He talked to me like I was a grown man. It may not have been a good thing but thatís just what it was.
He taught me about everything in life and boxing was a big part of it. Growing up my friends werenít into boxing like I was so I couldnít talk to them with in depth conversations. So I talked to my grand pop and uncle. He would explain to me about a fighterís character. A fighterís heart. A fighterís ambition. Things that Jack Johnson and others went through. Fixed fights and why they were fixed. My grand mom would tell him I was too young to talk to about stuff like that. I was literally 5 and 6 years old. But he didnít care. He wanted to me know.
He wasnít a fighter or trainer just a college grad/street guy who was in the KNOW. So I didnít get the training aspect from him. I got that on my own and now recently I have acquired another mentor in the training ranks. However I wonít name him.
Back to my grand pop. He gave me an unfair advantage as far as knowledge. I knew who guys like Ike Williams and Ezzard Charles were before I was in 1st grade. I once told him Ray Leonard could beat Ray Robinson and he told me donít ever say that out loud again. He sat me down and made me watch the movie Pound for Pound about Robinson. We used to watch that every day.
He used to tell me that you can tell what type of person someone is by the athletes they like. Well his favorite fighters where Jack Johnson, Joe Louis, Ezzard Charles, Muhammad Ali, Ray Robinson, Ray Leonard and Mike Tyson. That should tell you something. Robinson and Ali were his ultimates. He revered them to no end. He often cried about both of them. Like when Robinson lost to Joey Giradello and Ali to Holmes. Yup thatís how I grew upÖ..I have more stories but not enough time.
What's going on Bread! Just a quick question. Those pad routines that Floyd and Roger Mayweather do, are they routines that they memorize? On another note, that move that you broke down that Chavez Sr. did and that Chavez Jr. does now, the step forward with the right foot on a south-paw and comes over with the nasty left, like what James Toney did to Michael Nunn was crazy! That's observation my man! Very detailed observation!
Breadís Response: Yes the Mayweatherís all do their routines slightly different but itís a memorized sequence.
That move youíre talking about against a southpaw is in incredible and itís a shame most fighters arenít observant and open minded enough to try to the move. It would make fighting a southpaw that much easier and their handlers could match them better and easier.
I find it really strange that the move doesnít get used often enough. Maybe thatís why James Toney, Andre Ward and Chavez Senior didnít have to get protected against southpawsÖÖ
Bread, How do you see Sergio Martinez? Does he qualify as a hall a famer, pound for pound all time great?
I only see him as a good boxer... I mean he beats Chavez Jr and now he is a "God" or a "star" like his trainer claims..or the best pond for pound or a hall of famer...please..to me he got almost put away by a fraud who was handed a belt,a nobody and yes to me that counts. Am I being to hard on Sergio?
Can you imagine one of the big 3 like Mayweather,Pacquiao, Ward almost getting put away by a fraud? I can't.. that's why I see him as only a good fighter.
How do you clasify him and why? Joe, Dallas
Breadís Response: You are being hard on Sergio. He may not be an all time great fighter but heís definitely a Contemporary Great. Meaning heís a great fighter in his era, and he compares favorable to the best fighters of the last decade. I view him the same way I view Miguel Cotto.
Martinez has not been accepted by many purists because his style seems to have holes in it. But thatís selfish on their parts. Just because a guy doesnít fight like you want him to fight, that doesnít mean heís not good. When I started betting on fights I realized that. I wasnít going to bet against a guy because I didnít like his style.
If Martinez unifies the middleweight title and he performs in BIG fights over the next couple of years he could be an all time great. Be open minded broÖ.
Love your work. Been a fan for a while now. I wanted to get your take on this. Before in a previous mailbag you said that you thought Mayweather would outbox and defeat Sergio Martinez. However, you said that Manny Pacquiao would be a very bad style matchup for Mayweather. I wonder if after the Chavez Jr. fight, you still think the same of Sergio and Mayweather in a matchup. I was always of the opinion that Sergio would be a bad style matchup for Mayweather because of the unorthodox style he brings, along with being a southpaw who is naturally bigger and possesses good power and speed. I never gave Sergio enough credit for being a body puncher, however, that changed with watching this fight with Chavez Jr. He was able to really tag Chavez Jr. to the body with that straight left and still maintain good distance.
Against Mayweather, I see him doing what I felt Miguel Cotto should have done. Which is throw the one two, accept go downstairs with the two. I felt like Cotto had that shot all night long and he rarely took advantage of it again Floyd. Floyd knows what comes after a jab and that is a straight right to the face so he automatically defends it well. However, with Sergio being a southpaw, which is not Floyd's specialty, he would automatically give him different angles. Also, I think he would go downstairs with his straight left, like Mayweather does with his jab, all night and wear Floyd down with his power on that punch. Floyd will have his moments of countering that shot with a straight right, however, Martinez showed that he is willing to take punches if something is working. Floyd has never been much of a volume puncher, and against Martinez, he won't have a reach advantage so his jab will not be all that effective considering the distance Martinez keeps and his quickness around the ring. I think Martinez wins a decision. Let me know your take. Keep doing what your doing and I look forward to your response.--Adrian in Tampa, FL.
Breadís Response: I stand corrected. Martinez has too much physicality for Floyd at this point. I think he would stop Floyd. Martinez is a bigger puncher than people realize. He gave Chavez a terrible beating. Martinez is also to too strong for Floyd. Thatís what I underestimated. I thought Floyd would infight him and beat him up, but Martinez would ďmoveĒ Floyd with his punches similar to how Victor Ortiz did but heís an overall much better fighter than Ortiz.
Martinez is older but I think he can put out more energy at this point. He threw 900 punches against a huge fighter. I was very impressed. I read an interview and I listened to Floyd Senior talk about Martinez. He does not want the fight for his son. I think he feels the same way as I do, but he just wonít come out and say my son canít beat Martinez. I donít believe the fight will get made.
Whats up Bread,
Bam Bam Rios Vs Mike Alvarado! Yo Iím pumped up for this one, I have my tickets for this one I canít wait. Mike Alvarado has been training at our gym the last couple of days and Heís a BIG light Welterweight. At First I didnít know who to pick, because they both possess the same skill sets, but after seeing Mike Alvarado in Person, I have to with ALVARADO. I think his size is going to be a big Factor in this fight. Rios has never been in there with someone this big, not only is this guy bigger, stronger, but heís just as game as Brandon RiosÖ (Refer Back to Bredis Prescot fight) BEAST! Alvarado By knockout 9th round.
Breadís Response: Iím really surprised Rios took this fight. Rios has been slumping to me lately. I think the weight played a part in it. Maybe he has burned himself making an unnatural weight for so long. Maybe he will be rejuvenated. Right now Iím up in the air.
I wanted to ask you what I consider to be one of boxing's most time-honored philosophical questions/topics:
Quitting vs. going out on your shield. I woud like to know your thoughts on that. Would you say that there are various degrees of quitting? is it ever ok to throw in the towel? or do you believe quitting is quitting no matter what the circumstance? Here are my thoughts: 1. Pacquiao-Margarito: In my humble opinion this fight should have been stopped by Margarito's corner if not the ref. I understand that Antonio "came to die in the ring" but that doesn't mean the ref or corner should let him. I would like to play devil's advocate with this, especially since Chad Dawson has been catching some flak for quitting. What if Margarito elected to not continue against Manny? would he be considered a quitter? Conversely if Dawson went the full 12 rounds and got his face shattered (and possibly cut his career short) would he suddenly be more of a warrior. Last but not least I would like to know what you as a trainer would do if your fighter was taking a severe beating in a fight he had no chance of winning. What if he wants to continue but you know it's not in his best interest to do so?
I really hope this makes the mailbag. Keep up the good work
William in West Palm
Breadís Response: Great question! Yes there are several degrees to quitting. When Alexis Arguello and Erik Morales allowed themselves to be counted out against Aaron Pryor and Manny Pacquiao, no one gave them flack because they both gave so much over the years.
But when Victor Ortiz or Acelino Freitas quit, they get blasted. It seems to me that quitting is more accepted if itís from an aging warrior who has gave us thrill after thrill. Guys on the top side with more to prove than they have already proven just canít quit.
Because Margarito was caught cheating he had to take his beating no matter how close to death he came. He came awfully close. So in his particular case he couldnít quit. He didnít want to be a cheater and a quitter.
As for Chad Dawson, I really donít have a grasp on his situation. He was getting beat up but I think you will agree we have all seen worse. His beating was no worse than the one Diego Corrales received from Floyd Mayweather and Corrales marched on. The difference is Corralesí corner stopped the fight. Iím not blaming anybodyÖ. But I think in Chadís case it would have looked better for him had his corner surrendered for him instead of him surrendering for himself. Iím not saying his corner did the wrong thing, they may not have been able to see Chadís eyes or body language. Iím just suggesting that Chad wouldnít have got the same flack had his team did it for him.
As for what I would do it would depend on the fighter. Coaches have to know who they are dealing with. Because nobody has ever seen Chad in that position before I assume his coaches didnít want to throw the towel in and make the wrong call.
I can say for sure that the two kids that I have been around the most Shawn Porter and Julian Williams, I would have to save them from getting hurt. Williams has told me that if he ever gets hurt, let it go no matter what and he actually threatened to fire me if I ever stopped one of his fights. I have been fired from jobs before and I wouldnít allow him to get seriously hurt. But I would give him the best chance humanly possible because I know him on the inside and heís too prideful at this moment in his career to quit.
But there are many factors in that. Heís 22 right now with so much to proveÖÖ. Each case has to be judged individually.
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