DAILY BREAD THURSDAY EDITION (7-11-13)
By Stephen "Breadman" Edwards
Remember I told you if my Rockets got Howard we are gone see Miami in the final's and put the heat on em. Well it has come to pass and it's on and popping in Htown brother. My respect for you as a boxing mind is obvious so I wanted you to put me up on the business side of boxing. Andre Ward is attempting to get out of his contract with Goosen-Tutor. My first response is why now as far as I know Goosen-Tutor has guided his career this far and put him in place to be a mega-star if he can beat the likes of Super Man and GGG. My question is roughly how much time energy and money does it take for a promoter to build a Andre Ward into a super star. One would think that him being an Olympian would help his marketability, he has charisma, and the model looks. It would appear to me he would be easy to sell. Especially given the fact that he is from a large city like California. In your opinion has Gooosen-Tutor done less than what would be expected with a fighter the caliber of Andre Ward, More than you would be expected or just about what you would expect with Ward's career. And is it worth loosing a couple of years of your prime to legal disputes. In my opinion the suits usually win because even if the fighter wins it takes time. Time and money both of which are valuable commodities and in short supply in most fighters cases. In fact, if we take a quick stroll down memory lane history as I understand it would present a compelling argument to stay in a bad deal as opposed to fighting it out in court. Exhibit A Manny Pacquio wants to leave Top Rank so he signs with Golden Boy after an expensive legal battle, Manny now pays both Top Rank and Golden Boy fees out of his purses, suits 1 fighters 0. Alfredo Angola who just put on one of the gutsiest performances in a prize fight that I have ever seen lost almost 3 years of his prime in a bitter dispute with Gary Shaw promotions. Angola of 3 years ago would have destroyed Lara, hell the shop worn version nearly ruined him. Angula is probably done as a major player in big network fights. ESPN is probably his landing spot without ever sniffing a WBA, WBC, WBO, or IBFChampionship Belt which is hard to do in this era of interim champions and the like. Suits 2 - Fighters 0. A couple of years ago Yurorkis Gamboa was the hottest thing in boxing HBO had bought into him hook line and sinker then he turns down a career high payday to fight Brandon Rios, want's to get out of his contract, starts a legal battle, is successfully at getting his contract bought out by a rookie Promoter that moonlights as a rapper. 2 1/2 years later he comes back on HBO but looks less than spectacular in his most recent outing, in my opinion due to ring rust and lack of confidence. The jury is still out as to how much the layoff has effected his upward progress but no doubt is has been slowed considerably. The bigger problem is he signed with an inexperienced guy who is a great business man but his first solo promotion was last week and was less than spectacular. SMS may eventually be successful but the jury is still out. On another note Allen Green did JLeon, SMS and himself a disservice by the classless way he handled himself as a headliner. Gamboa is at best a draw against top rank. Suits 2 Fighter 0 Draw 1. I could go on with names like Daavid Tua, Almost every fighter not named Mike Tyson that Don King has ever promoted and the losses would pile up pretty high for the fighters. In fairness there are a few fighters like Bhop, Floyd, and Golden Boy that break away from promoters and live to see another day but the list of career's KO'd outside the ring is staggering. So my question is, Is Ward making a mistake by taking on this fight at this time in his career given his ability to be injury prone and the limited prime all fighter have. What is the basic fighter, trainer promoter, advisor ect split of the purse money. Who pays for training expenses, travel and other expenses. Final question when the big boys come calling your fighter how do you avoid this type of madness??
As always, loving the fight game, and those that put it down for it. So keep it Breazy Bread. Holla at me...
Breadís Response: Long question lol. I like Houston I think they will be good but the NBA has a long season bro. Dwight Howard is talented but he has shown me he may not be the guy to turn a franchise around. I think he left two franchises in shambles and that doesnít sit well with me.
I think Goosen Tutor has done a decent job with Ward but there is a running joke in boxing circles. People joke all the time that Andre Berto has made much more money than Andre Ward and we all know that shouldnít be. So let me just state that if Ward were with Golden Boy/Al Haymon or Top Rank he would be a much bigger star and more importantly he would be paid better.
I never like it when a fighterís career is stalled with court battles but sometimes it has to be done. Suits as you call them know they can fight in court longer than a fighter can fight in the ring, so lots of times they screw fighters in the initial contracts.
I donít know all of the back stage going ons with Ward vs Goosen battle. But from what Andre has said publicly he didnít like Goosen negotiating his future fights without his Co Promoter and Manager present for the negotiations. I can respect that and I think heís right. I havenít heard Goosenís sideÖ.. To be honest Iím surprised Ward resigned with Goosen. I mean heís Goosenís biggest star by far. If Ward doesnít resign with Goosen who can Goosen get on HBO World Championship Boxing or Showtime World Championship Boxing? Most fighters in Wardís position would have bolted. ButÖ..Hopefully he doesnít miss anytime. Ward is a great fighter but he has been inactive considering heís been a pro 9 years. I would love to see Ward fight 4 times in a year against a plethora of challenges. We would all be treated.
When the big boys come calling nothing is bullet proof in avoiding the drama. But a good start would be having a great talent. The better the talent the more you can negotiate early on. If the contract is SIMPLE and it has a CURE in it, you at least have an easy leg to stand on. By cure I mean if the promoter breaches and does not give you what he says he will in the contract, the CURE is the remedy or compensation. Most promoters are so slick these days they donít even put a CURE in the contract if they breach but yet they will clearly state what they will do with the fighter if the fighter does not live up to his end of the contract. SMH, boxing is an ugly game.
The splits go all kinds of ways. That is too broad of a question especially when you factor in the promoter cut. Because promoters have so many ways they can ďgetĒ money they usually always make out. So you have to specify cut from what.
What's up Bread?
I just had a few questions based on your 7/7 Mailbag:
1. There was a time when you thought Canelo would beat Floyd, however you are now going with Mayweather. What did you see that caused you to change your stance? Did it have to do with Canelo's stamina issues? (I first noticed this even when he blew out Kermit Cintron) or the lateral movement Floyd showed against Guerrero? I think that if Mayweather incorporates movement instead of just standing in the pocket (like against Cotto) he will pull away in the later rounds.
2. Someone asked about Abner Mares being on your p4p list as opposed to Mikey Garcia. Who do you think wins head-to-head at 128-130 (given Garcia's difficulty making 126)
3. This one wasn't in your mailbag but I had to ask anyway. Amir Khan vs. Miguel Cotto at 150. Who wins and why?
Breadís Response: Caneloís stamina issue is big to me. Heís very patient and I love that in a young fighter but I also think his patience is so noticeable because he wants to keep from being tired. So itís a pro and a con.
At the time I was asked about the fight I was watching Floyd fight in the ďboxĒ and I donít think he could beat Canelo like that. Canelo is murder in the mid range, especially for a smaller fighter like Floyd. But something happened in the Guerrero fight for Floyd. I havenít seen Floyd move that much since his title winning effort vs. Carlos Baldomir. See when a fighter has the kind of movement that Floyd displayed against Guerrero you have to be a pressure guy of the Chavez Sr, Jeff Fenech, Sandy Saddler, Henry Armstrong ilk. Canelo is more of a heavy handed boxer puncher, I donít view him a pressure fighter. See the difference.. Unless Canelo was a 5í11, hard long jabber like a prime Oscar, in which he is not I see him having trouble with Floydís moving style.
I will say this. I believe fights are won in preparation. I think Canelo really prepares well for fights. In each of his fights he shows me something different, a new wrinkle. The first time I saw him was against Jose Cotto and I thought he was overrated. I donít think that anymore. If somehow he and his team can condense this fight and impose their style on Floyd I believe he has a shot. I expect a really good fight and I wouldnít surprised if there was a controversial decision. But yes his stamina scares me and I expect Floyd to exploit it.
I just read you mailbox from 7/7/13 and man again you are right on point. I have been stewing every since the Rigondeaux/Donaire fight. I actually wanted to write in that night after I heard Bob Arum say that he would have a hard time promoting Rigo. WTF!! Bob, are you not the mans promoter?? Is that not your job? I have never heard no shit like that before. Even if Bob really felt that way, why in the world would he actually say some shit like that on camera! Then few weeks later I hear Richard Schafer say the same shit about Lara after he beat Angulo. I'm not hip to the promoting game, but I'm pretty sure that telling the world that your fighter is not worthy of your promoting efforts is not good for the fighter. We all know that Arum wanted Donaire to win that fight, just as Golden Boy wanted Angulo to win. And we know why, future earning potential. But how can Rigo and Lara trust these guys when they know they have rooted against them in fights? If Bob and Richard feel its so hard to promote these guys, then they should let them out of their contracts and let them find somebody that will actually work for them. But we know that shit aint gona happen. Sad but it seems both guys will probably not get the kind of opportunities they are due. They will be shelved until these promoters fall in love with the next "cant miss up and comer" and attempt to use these guys as a stepping stone again. SMH. Damn Shady promoters.
Breadís Response: It is a dam shame. Promoters are always making excuses on why certain fighters are hard to promote but in this day and age I think itís BS. There was a time when the majority of the profit of a big fight came from the live gate. But in this day and age with sponsors and Rights Fees checks and site fees being paid by Casinos promoters really have it good.
I know the live gate helps but itís not a necessity these days. If I had a Cuban fighter I would fight him in a casino in south Florida where there are plenty of nice Casinos. South Florida also has a large Cuban population. Now as a promoter I could probably get a 250k site fee from a Casino, another 50k from sponsors and about 1 or 2 million for a rights fee from HBO or Showtime. All of the expenses are covered, I am in the green. The live gate is play money.
I would do this for the showcase fights and when I matched him against a Mexican or Filipino fighter I would hold the fight in a more boxing friendly arena. I thought of that on the ďflyĒ.
Here are the excuses I have heard from promoters. That guyís style doesnít sell well this guy is not marketable. Well Floyd Mayweather is a boxer who rarely knocks fighters out and heís the biggest star in boxing. Somebody explain that.
Black fighters have to be loud and arrogant to sell well. Last time I checked Evander Holyfield was a quiet man, who is not overly articulate but yet he is the highest grossing fighter ever.
A fighter has to be handsome. Iím a dude but I donít view Mike Tyson and Manny Pacquiao as like Don Juan types, lol. They do fine at the box office.
My point is talent can be the sell. If you have a guy who can really fight, sell his talent. Sell his strong points to the audience and let him do his thing. Everybody canít be Muhammad Ali but I really believe these promoters as a whole take the easy way out.
There is always a ďtypeĒ of person that will draw towards a fighter outside of the ring. For example Floyd Mayweather and Zab Judah are extremely marketable in the urban arena. The way they dress and so forth would be classified as ďthoroughĒ (Philly word). Now follow me close. Black guys like Tim Bradley or say Shane Mosley may not be considered ďthoroughĒ in the urban community. But It doesnít mean they arenít marketable. Market them towards where they are from, what type of people they are and so forth. There is always something. Promoters need to stop making excuses and make a way.
What do you think of Mayweather and Bronerís relationship? I have noticed that Floyd has been slightly critical of Bronerís performance against Malignaggi. Do you think they will end up like Floyd and 50?
Breadís Response: InterestingÖ When I read that Floyd said Broner should have stopped Paulie, I just thought to myself it will be a matter of time. Then I just read that Floyd said they are bringing Broner up slow and that he was fighting veterans like Genaro Hernandez at 21. I can only imagine what Broner is thinking.
The male ego might be the most powerful thing in this world. I hope they donít end up spewing nasty stuff about each other in the media. That would not be cool.
Donovan McNabb and Terrell Owens had a bromance that ended ugly. Floyd and 50 had one that ended the same way and I personally hope that Floyd and Adrienís friendship does not end like that. Who knowsÖÖ.
I remember you saying that you were interested in the fight between Glen Tapia and Abie Han because they are in your fightersí division. I see they are fighting Friday night. Who are you picking and why?
Breadís Response: I have seen Glen Tapia fight a few times and I have seen him spar in the gym. Heís a strong fighter and he seems like a good puncher. However he does seem tight and he doesnít look fluid to me. I donít know Han as well. I have only seen glimpse of his fights. Han looks a little slow to me from what I have seen.
My point is I donít know Han well enough to make an accurate pick. I have never seen a FULL fight of his. But I did do some background on Han and I found out he didnít turn pro until he was 23. I also found out he lost over 75 fights amateur fights. That really shocked me, so much so I am surprised Top Rank would sign a kid who lost over half of their amateur bouts.
I also noticed that both guys have been brought along really careful for them to have 18 and 19 fights. Neither of them has faced a really good up and coming prospect who was undefeated or had 1 loss. Neither of them has fought an ex world champion. I was really shocked to see the lack of advancement in their records. What shocked me the most was neither guy has ever fought a 10 round fight and they didnít start fighting 8 rounders until their 14th and 15th fights respectively.
In my opinion Top Rank has historically brought along their fighters the best as far as matchmaking and building. Building Oscar, Floyd, Cotto, Pavlik and Juan Ma Marquez up from scratch is a major accomplishment. Each of those guys were undefeated well into over 20 fights with TR and each one had multiple titles under TR. I would love to pick the brains of their great matchmakers and ask them why Tapia and Han have been brought along so slow.
Just going by my research and gut feeling I expect a good fight but I donít expect us to walk away thinking we are seeing the next Fernando Vargas. I wonít pick a winner in a fight where I havenít seen a full fight of one of the participants but if you want to bet my tip would be Tapia has the better pedigree. I assume he gets the better sparring residing between New York and Philly and he had the much better amateur career.
Just read a news link that rumors that HBO is not willing to put El Chacal back on the air. Like his Manager stated in a link afterwards, HBO is making a bad decison in my opinion. To me and I know you've said this before, Guillermo is the best pure boxer I've seen since Pernel Whitaker. You can put Mayweather there, but to me his style is different, feel me? Anyways, his Manager says that if he fought the guys Donaire fought, he would look good and maybe knocked them out with his underated power. What are your thoughts on this and do see a possible working relationship with Arum-Showtime-Rigondeaux?
Breadís Response: I think itís out right disgusting. I also think TR should fight harder for him. What if they told HBO you put this special fighter on or you canít have any of our fights. I bet they would re think their stance. All Rigondeaux did was upset a guy HBO was pushing. I guess he made a mistake by being so good.
Bread, first off thanks for giving us the best boxing mind of our generation, brother! You are impartial, analytical, insightful, and above all truthful. I'm not buttering you up, it's just that the truth comes only one way. It's shameful how other sites are blatantly trashing other fighters' accomplishments and careers simply because they are fans of another fighter. This is how these guys make a living. It's easier to type a load of crap on their computers than to lace them up and get into the squared circle to "do the thang" themselves. I'm getting to the real reason I'm writing. It looks as if Showtime has put itself in a position to knock HBO off it's pedestal for the second half of this year with their match ups. Also, Canelo has serious moxy to muscle Floyd at the negotiating table. Floyd doesn't usually concede anything, but he accepted the 2 pound catchweight. Plus he's getting like 10m. That's big for Canelo and he has to be feeling pretty good about himself. He basically forced Floyd to fight him by not only threatening to pull out of a PPV event, but actually doing it. We all saw what that did to the numbers. Some say they were as few as 750-900k buys. Showtime supposedly banked on Floyd bringing in better numbers and had a clause that allowed them to void the contract in the event he didn't hold up his end of the bargain. He took the intelligent boxing public for granted when he chose a blown up lightweight in Guerrero. And he paid for it. Also, have you noticed that Floyd hasn't taken off his shades during the 10 city tour during the staredown? What's up with that? I don't think he's necessarily afraid, but it says something when a man keeps his ball cap and shades on during the staredown for every promo stop. He could've at least turned the cap backwards or sideways to show some swag, but it is like he's trying to keep his distance from Canelo on a subconscious level. Floyd abused Ortiz during promos, called Hatton a brawler, dogged Mosely's wife and suit to his face, strangely though he's had NOTHING to say to Canelo at all. What do you make of that? I think Floyd is suffering psychologically because Silva just lost, and this really was a fight he was forced by Showtime to take. How embarassing would it be for him to have Showtime yank that fat contract from under him because he wanted to fight the Bertos, Holts, Maidanas, and Khans of the world instead of legitimate, bona fide champions in the weight class he holds a belt in? What do you think? Do you think Fraud Gayweather will stay at 154 where clearly the best challenges await (GGG, Kid Chocolate, Geal) or will he feel Canelo's power and slip back down to fight Alexander, Bradley, or Garcia?
Joe in Memphis
If one of the fighters you train come to the casino in Tupelo, let us know. I'd love to see them live and shake your hand.
Breadís Response: Thanks brother. Memphis has the best bar b que I have had.
First off letís be fair to Floyd. GGG is way too big for him and itís a fight that will never happen. Letís not even discuss it.
I donít know if Floyd will stay at 154 or not. I think Floyd is at his ceiling at the weight and a strong super welter with boxing ability will give him fits. There are enough welters and junior welters out there that he can fight and finish out the contractÖÖ
I am not going to over analyze anything that happened at the press tour between Floyd and Canelo. I think by nature Floyd is a poker. He pokes and pokes and he aggravates guys while he stays 100% focus. Most of Floydís opponents want to hurt him instead of box him and it works in his favor. By nature Canelo is a calm kid and I think he has the right mindset. I personally donít give an edge to either fighter based on the press tour.
Right now during the pre fight hype I will agree with you that Canelo has won one battle. That battle is the catchweight. Here is why.
I think Floyd is acknowledging how tough this kid will be by asking him to fight at 152lbs. You canít argue the facts. Floyd has never asked for a catchweight before. One would argue what makes Canelo so special. I think Canelo should be flattered by that.
For the record I canít understand why none of Floydís opponents have not insulted him. Floyd hasnít really gone in on Canelo but I have seen him get loose on some guys as you have stated. Maybe heís more mature these days. But none of Floydís opponents have gone in on him personally. I donít get that. Maybe Floyd hypnotizes these guys. But man what do you think Roberto Duran would say to a guy that he thought was going to box and move on him. He would want to piss him off so the guy could try to ko him.
Itís weird because Floyd insults guys, he makes them want to knock his head and then relaxes and boxes and beats their butts. I am curious if Canelo will be such a gentleman as the fight gets closer.
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